Derek Chauvin trial

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76.shutout » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:37 pm

Dr is laying it down.
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User avatar 77.MoralityULack » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:50 pm

An emergency medicine doctor who treated George Floyd the night he died testified in court Monday that he believed Floyd had died of “asphyxia,” the common term for oxygen deprivation.
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User avatar 78.MoralityULack » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:51 pm

Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo testified in court Monday that former police officer Derek Chauvin “absolutely” violated the department’s use of force policy when he knelt on George Floyd’s neck in May 2020.

Arradondo took the stand during the sixth day of witness testimony in Chauvin’s trial. Prosecutor Steve Schleicher asked Arradondo whether he believed Chauvin followed the Minneapolis Police Department’s policy on deescalation tactics.

“I absolutely do not,” Arradondo said. He added that Chauvin’s actions did not constitute a “defense tactics technique” police officers are trained to use.
"That in no way, shape or form is anything that is by policy, it's not part of our training and is certainly not part of our ethics or values."
Last edited by MoralityULack on Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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User avatar 79.MoralityULack » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:54 pm

So to recap so far....

The chief says the assault was against policy
The most Sr policeman said it was unnecessary and uncalled for.
The doctor said he was suffocated.
And a medic says she was blocked from saving him by the police.
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80.gargin » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:00 am

No dog in fight, personally think cop is prob guilty of something. That said, it seemed like the defense cross of the chief was very solid. Would be curious to know what Doc thinks if he saw it. Also, the "judy garland" ref by state on dr seemed weird as hell.
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81.PG. » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:28 am

I watched and did not see that reference. Even googled it and nothing. What did he say?

Did find an interesting article where one of her husbands said the munchkins were always sticking their hands up her skirt.
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User avatar 82.DocZaius » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:56 am

No dog in fight, personally think cop is prob guilty of something. That said, it seemed like the defense cross of the chief was very solid. Would be curious to know what Doc thinks if he saw it. Also, the "judy garland" ref by state on dr seemed weird as hell.
I actually haven’t been watching any of the testimony so I can’t really say. From what I’ve read, the prosecution team seems to be getting away with some shady stuff, like a brand new ER doctor testifying about cause of death and introducing only select parts of the videos.

The prosecution witnesses so far seem pretty united regarding use of force, however, and it makes me wonder who the defense witnesses on that issue are going to be. That photo from the police training manual seems pretty effective but I haven’t read where the defense used it yet in cross.
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User avatar 83.DocZaius » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:29 pm

More defense-oriented (but not necessarily wrong) analysis from Legal Insurrection on the prosecution's cause-of-death witnesses:

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/c ... witnesses/
In the case of both Thomas and Baker, there was a common pattern in the nature of their testimony. On direct questioning by Prosecutor Blackwell they would both say the magic words they certainly knew the state needed them to say on the witness stand—in effect, and perhaps even literally word-for-word—they identified the primary cause of George Floyd’s death as asphyxia complicated by law enforcement subdual restraint and neck compression.

When asked on direct if any of the other notable factors everyone knew the defense would raise on cross—the existing cardiovascular disease with 75% to 90% occlusion of all three major coronary arteries, the hypertension-induced enlarged heart, the presence of fentanyl and methamphetamine in Floyd’s system, the adrenaline induced by Floyd’s poorly made decision to fight four police officers for 10 minutes—could any of that have been the cause of Floyd’s death.

The answer was a flat no, period. Floyd’s death could only be attributable to asphyxia complicated by law enforcement subdual restraint and neck compression.

Good for the state, right?

On cross examination, however, both Thomas and Baker agreed that every single one of those factors, by themselves, even in the absence of any police involvement, or any of the other factors, if viewed in isolation could be an entirely reasonable cause of death for an official death certificate. (I’m amalgamating the responses of both Thomas and Baker, as they were so similar—video of their individual cross-examination testimony is embedded below for those wishing a more granular sense of what each said.)

In other words, had Floyd been found dead at home and autopsy revealed the 75% to 90% occlusion of his three major coronary arteries, would it have been reasonable for a medical examiner to attribute cause of death to that heart condition? Yes.

You’ve signed thousands of death certificates listing cause of death as atherosclerotic disease in patients with similar levels of occlusion as Floyd? Yes.

You’ve signed death certificates listing cause of death as hypertensive cardiomegalopathy in patients have a similar degree of enlarged heart as Floyd? Yes.

Did you tell investigators when interviewed that cardiovascular disease was a significant contributo rto Floyd’s death? Yes.

If Floyd had been found dead at home, and toxicology had revealed 11 ng/ml of fentanyl in his system, would it have been reasonable for a medical examiner to attribute cause of death to fentanyl overdose? Yes.

Have you signed death certificates as overdose deaths in cases where fentanyl levels were at 11 ng/ml? Yes. Below 11 ng/ml? Yes. As low as 3 ng/ml? Yes.

Would the presence of a combination of drugs, like fentanyl and methamphetamine, make overdose a more likely cause of death? Yes.

Could asphyxia of the heart be induced by methamphetamine creating a higher demand for oxygen by the heart than Floyd’s body could deliver? Yes.

However low the level of methamphetamine in Floyd’s system, is there any level which is safe? No. Would you recommend methamphetamine or even prescription amphetamine for a patient with Floyd’s cardiac status? No.

Would this the demand for oxygen of Floyd’s heart, and the inability of his body to deliver on that demand, be worsened by adrenaline resulting from Floyd’s physical confrontation with the officers? Yes.

So, even if we don’t consider Floyd’s exertion in fighting police, take the police out of the question entirely , pretend there was no impact made by the illicit drugs in Floyd’s system, a reasonable call on cause of death was simply Floyd’s existing cardiovascular disease and hypertension? Yes.

What percentage of restriction of the coronary arteries would be potentially fatal? 70% to 90%. What was the restriction of the coronary arteries in Floyd’s heart? 75% to 90%. Does a 90% stenosis of a carotid artery limit blood to the heart? Yes. Does adrenaline increase the heart’s demand for blood? Yes. Does meth increase demand for blood? Yes.

In the context of death being purportedly afflicted by subdual restraint and neck compression, Nelson also hammered on the absence of any objective evidence of actual force sufficient to achieve such a result.

Was there any bruising to the back of Floyd’s neck or back? No. Either on the surface or even deeper in the tissues? No. Would a knee and shin applied with substantial force be expected to cause a bruise? Yes, would be expected, but absence of bruising doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. That’s true of course, but one does not get to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt based on explaining away an absence of evidence.

Then, for both Thomas and Baker, on re-direct by Prosecutor Blackwell they would both once again parrot the magic words desired by the state: Floyd’s death could only be attributable to asphyxia complicated by law enforcement subdual restraint and neck compression. Not to heart disease? No. Not to hypertension? No. Not to fentanyl? No. Not to Meth? No. Not to fighting the police? No.

This generalized and simple-minded denial of the uncertainty and doubt raised in detail by the defense on cross may once again provide fodder for conviction-favorable headlines, but it doesn’t push the needle closer to certainty beyond a reasonable doubt in court.
I think this is the key issue in the case - can the state prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin's restraint caused Floyd's death? With so many other possible causes and the lack of trauma to the neck, the defense makes a strong case for reasonable doubt. Remember, these are the state's experts testifying - we haven't even gotten to the defense case yet.
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84.Supes44444 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:55 pm

Yeah, I'm not sure if they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt here. Defense has done what it needs to to argue fentanyl and meth as well as the large crowd being part of the issue. But then again, you never know what a jury is going to do. I've only watched bits and pieces of the trial thus far. Too busy prepping for my own trials.
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85.Denver-Gator » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:34 pm

It seems to me there wouldn't have been an angry crowd if the Chauvin hadn't been choking the guy to death right in front of them. :beatsme:
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86.PG. » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:39 pm

Must be open season on blacks in Minnesota.

Female cop accidentally shoots instead of tasing.
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87.evil gator » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:53 pm

Yeah never really a good time for an accidental shooting but what a mess. Hope cops protestors and innocent bystanders don’t end up dying
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88.evil gator » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:29 pm

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89.Fishon » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:39 pm

hard to argue with that. sounds like an HOA wrote that law
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User avatar 90.MoralityULack » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:45 pm

its an excuse - like probably most laws - to give the police the right to stop anyone they want. Then they can selectively enforce the law or do more invasive searches if they dont look white enough, rich enough or conforming enough to have powerful friends.
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91.PG. » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:09 am

I could have sworn at the press conference they said expired tag.
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User avatar 92.RIP » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:20 am

I could have sworn at the press conference they said expired tag.
It was his tag and the air fresheners.
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RIP (xe/xem/xyr)

User avatar 93.DocZaius » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:39 am

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User avatar 94.MoralityULack » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:54 am

Meh the cops killed a black man for his air freshener. So what. It happens every day. Has for 150 years. Nothing has changed. Why do those people make a scene. You would think they would be used to it by now. Its just the liberal media planting all those crazy ideas about equality and justice for all in their heads. They dont know their place any more.
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95.evil gator » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:52 am

That was ridiculous - reporters now tell someone who was there what happened

The city manager was fired for claiming the cop should have due process

Reporters get to run things now

Doc doesn’t the police union/city contract likely have a provision about not getting fired without some sort of hearing? I mean most government employees do. Couldn’t the cop sue the city for not following process? Did these activist reporters push to bankrupt a community they probably don’t live in?
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User avatar 96.Panamag8or » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:02 pm

I could have sworn at the press conference they said expired tag.
It was. The kid called his mom and said he thought it was the air freshener.
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User avatar 97.DocZaius » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:19 pm

That was ridiculous - reporters now tell someone who was there what happened

The city manager was fired for claiming the cop should have due process

Reporters get to run things now

Doc doesn’t the police union/city contract likely have a provision about not getting fired without some sort of hearing? I mean most government employees do. Couldn’t the cop sue the city for not following process? Did these activist reporters push to bankrupt a community they probably don’t live in?
Yeah, I deal with that sometimes in my job - most public sector employees, especially police, are part of some kind of union. They'll have a collective bargaining agreement with the city that spells out what kind of discipline can be taken, hearing procedures, etc. He was right to say that the officer would get her due process - that's how it works. As much as I sometimes hate it, you can't just fire public sector employees the same way you can in the private sector. Really dumb move to fire the guy. As the top-level executive, he's probably not a member of a union but no doubt he's got a contract and he could probably sue them for it.
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User avatar 98.MoralityULack » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:42 pm

Union suck.

Anyone who doesnt know a pistol from a taser should never be issued either. And its hard to imagine what kind of job that person would be suited for.
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99.evil gator » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:44 pm

The cop and police chief resigned; wonder if that calms things down
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100.PG. » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:00 pm

Reporter's question to mayor:

"Why was she allowed to resign? Why didn't you fire her instead."
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