737s

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User avatar 1.MoralityULack » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:12 pm

An off-duty pilot in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 Max 8 jet jumped in to help crew disable a malfunctioning flight-control system as it experienced difficulties in October, according to Bloomberg.

The next day, with a different crew, the same plane crashed into the sea off Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

Investigators said the jet experienced problems on its last four flights -- including, crucially, the flight that crashed,

Indonesian authorities confirmed that the plane's angle of attack (AOA) sensor was replaced after a flight from Manado, in North Sulawesi to Denpasar, Bali on October 28. The Boeing 737 Max 8 then made another flight to Jakarta that same day, and the pilots reported further problems.

The AOA sensors send information to the plane's computers about the angle of the plane's nose relative to the airflow over and under the wings to help determine whether the plane is about to stall.

Software installed on Boeing's 737 Max 8 planes, called the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), automatically lowers the nose of the plane when it receives information from the AOA sensors that the aircraft is flying too slowly or steeply, and at risk of stalling.

A preliminary KNKT report said the crew of Air Lion Flight 610 struggled to override the plane's automatic systems in the minutes before it plunged into the ocean. The system pulled the plane's nose down more than two dozen times, the report said.

This has been happening for months. Years? And if the crew knows how to turn it off the outcome is good. If not...
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"I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy...Donald Trump is not a conservative Republican. He's an opportunist. He's not fit to be President of the United States... Donald Trump is a race-baiting xenophobic bigot.” - Lindsey Graham

User avatar 2.Denver-Gator » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:16 pm

Software controlling complex systems sometimes with unanticipated and disastrous results.

It happens every now and then, but moving forward you're never going to completely eliminate these types of problems. No matter how hard you try, some will slip through to the field. Now if Boeing looked the other way (which seems entirely possible in this case), then that's a real problem.
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User avatar 3.MoralityULack » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:38 pm

One of my favorite gigs was I managed 150 people across about 10 companies doing QA for a financial system. At one point I was thinking of focusing only on that. But, yeah, the down side is you can never be perfect. Spending vast sums just gets you closer and most people want to take shortcuts. There is a lot of opportunity for conflict.

What I dont understand is how the plane could have issues for its last four flights and not be pulled or at least have the crew briefed on how they were solved. Looks to me like it was the airline then. If nothing has been done in six months that sounds more like Boeing.
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"I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy...Donald Trump is not a conservative Republican. He's an opportunist. He's not fit to be President of the United States... Donald Trump is a race-baiting xenophobic bigot.” - Lindsey Graham

User avatar 4.Denver-Gator » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm

One of my favorite gigs was I managed 150 people across about 10 companies doing QA for a financial system. At one point I was thinking of focusing only on that. But, yeah, the down side is you can never be perfect. Spending vast sums just gets you closer and most people want to take shortcuts. There is a lot of opportunity for conflict.

What I dont understand is how the plane could have issues for its last four flights and not be pulled or at least have the crew briefed on how they were solved. Looks to me like it was the airline then. If nothing has been done in six months that sounds more like Boeing.
Keep in mind, certification of this type of software is a joint responsibility between the company and the FAA. The FAA oversees and reviews the process.

As for that plane in particular (the Lion Air crash), because it was being operated by a foreign airlines with already "certified" software, the FAA nor Boeing have very much control over that specific situation.

What this all looks like to me is that a faulty sensor behaved in a way nobody anticipated, and the software wasn't tested adequately for that particular failure scenario. But the problem should have been recognized from that crash months ago, and the planes should have been grounded at that point until all the pilots that fly it understood what the potential problem was, and how to avoid it. The software upgrade to fix the issue permanently will take months to get to the field, because of all the re-certification required, which by the way was apparently delayed for over a month due to the government shutdown.
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5.Flight of the Gator » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:45 pm

Pull the breaker on that piece shit system and fly that bitch manually
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6.gatorbreeze » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:00 am

Ahahaha, simple and effective!
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Remember when you were young, broke and pissed off at the world? Well, you're older now.

7.9508 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:24 am

Also what they are supposed to do from what I’ve read.
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8.HG 2.0 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:57 am

Pull the breaker on that piece shit system and fly that bitch manually
:numby:
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User avatar 9.MoralityULack » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:28 pm

While flying a supersonic speed straight down at low latitude.

1. Remove the left throttle handle
2. Remove the right throttle handle
3. with a 10mm hex screwdriver remove the lower left screw on the throttle assembly
.
.
.
384. Remove the cover from the ACA sensor assembly.
385. disconnect the red wire from the contact
386. You have successfully disconnected the ACA sensor. Return the aircraft to level flight
Quote
"I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy...Donald Trump is not a conservative Republican. He's an opportunist. He's not fit to be President of the United States... Donald Trump is a race-baiting xenophobic bigot.” - Lindsey Graham

10.GFY » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:46 pm

Quit being pussies and die like a man.
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User avatar 11.Panamag8or » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:33 pm

While flying a supersonic speed straight down at low latitude.

1. Remove the left throttle handle
2. Remove the right throttle handle
3. with a 10mm hex screwdriver remove the lower left screw on the throttle assembly
.
.
.
384. Remove the cover from the ACA sensor assembly.
385. disconnect the red wire from the contact
386. You have successfully disconnected the ACA sensor. Return the aircraft to level flight
Or, just turn it off like the Lion Air pilot did, the day before the next pilot didn't, and crashed.
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User avatar 12.MoralityULack » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:45 pm

While flying a supersonic speed straight down at low latitude.

1. Remove the left throttle handle
2. Remove the right throttle handle
3. with a 10mm hex screwdriver remove the lower left screw on the throttle assembly
.
.
.
384. Remove the cover from the ACA sensor assembly.
385. disconnect the red wire from the contact
386. You have successfully disconnected the ACA sensor. Return the aircraft to level flight
Or, just turn it off like the Lion Air pilot did, the day before the next pilot didn't, and crashed.
Yeah. It was a joke. Obviously there is a way to fix it that most know and some dont.
Quote
"I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy...Donald Trump is not a conservative Republican. He's an opportunist. He's not fit to be President of the United States... Donald Trump is a race-baiting xenophobic bigot.” - Lindsey Graham

13.PG. » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:05 pm

As anybody who has flown a plane knows, there are various stall alarms that alert you your angle of attack is too steep. You then push the yoke forward and regain airspeed. I don't know why an automated system is needed unless the premise is both pilots are unconscious.
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User avatar 14.MoralityULack » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:15 pm

As anybody who has flown a plane knows, there are various stall alarms that alert you your angle of attack is too steep. You then push the yoke forward and regain airspeed. I don't know why an automated system is needed unless the premise is both pilots are unconscious.
That is a really good question. I think the assumption across about every industry and every system is that people are the least reliable component and every function you can take away from them the better off you will be. And that may be true. At least in the long run. Obviously without defective pilots this would not have happened. But theres a lot to think about in there.
Quote
"I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy...Donald Trump is not a conservative Republican. He's an opportunist. He's not fit to be President of the United States... Donald Trump is a race-baiting xenophobic bigot.” - Lindsey Graham

User avatar 15.Denver-Gator » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:19 pm

As anybody who has flown a plane knows, there are various stall alarms that alert you your angle of attack is too steep. You then push the yoke forward and regain airspeed. I don't know why an automated system is needed unless the premise is both pilots are unconscious.
That is a really good question. I think the assumption across about every industry and every system is that people are the least reliable component and every function you can take away from them the better off you will be. And that may be true. At least in the long run. Obviously without defective pilots this would not have happened. But theres a lot to think about in there.
This is one of the reasons automated driving scares the shit out of me. If Boeing, the FAA and whatever other organizations are in place to train every pilot flying a plane on how to deal with these circumstances, and this got missed. Imagine a bug or something like that getting into a fleet of passenger vehicles purchased by the general public that has (in the future) become accustomed to relying upon self driving car features.
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16.evil gator » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:28 pm

As anybody who has flown a plane knows, there are various stall alarms that alert you your angle of attack is too steep. You then push the yoke forward and regain airspeed. I don't know why an automated system is needed unless the premise is both pilots are unconscious.
That is a really good question. I think the assumption across about every industry and every system is that people are the least reliable component and every function you can take away from them the better off you will be. And that may be true. At least in the long run. Obviously without defective pilots this would not have happened. But theres a lot to think about in there.
This is one of the reasons automated driving scares the shit out of me. If Boeing, the FAA and whatever other organizations are in place to train every pilot flying a plane on how to deal with these circumstances, and this got missed. Imagine a bug or something like that getting into a fleet of passenger vehicles purchased by the general public that has (in the future) become accustomed to relying upon self driving car features.
I've pretty much accepted the fact that because I like to walk and run, I will be killed by an autonomous vehicle
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User avatar 17.MoralityULack » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:40 pm

If DateTime = 2040-11-21T17:30:00
Speed=100
ManualThrottle=Off
ManualSteering=Off
ManualBrake=Off
Quote
"I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy...Donald Trump is not a conservative Republican. He's an opportunist. He's not fit to be President of the United States... Donald Trump is a race-baiting xenophobic bigot.” - Lindsey Graham

User avatar 18.MoralityULack » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:01 pm

....And find that in testing.
Quote
"I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy...Donald Trump is not a conservative Republican. He's an opportunist. He's not fit to be President of the United States... Donald Trump is a race-baiting xenophobic bigot.” - Lindsey Graham

19.GFY » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:41 am

Boeing admits their software played the part in 346 deaths.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/04/boeing- ... ashes.html
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User avatar 20.MoralityULack » Wed May 15, 2019 1:01 pm

This looks bad for Boeing.
Just months before a second deadly crash of a Boeing 737 Max airplane, American Airlines pilots angrily confronted a Boeing official about a computerized anti-stall system that preliminary reports have now implicated in both deadly wrecks, audio obtained by CBS News reveals.

The Dallas Morning News and the New York Times reported on the November 27 meeting between American Airline pilots and Boeing employees earlier this week, citing recordings of the meeting. The papers reported the pilots were frustrated that Boeing didn't disclose the presence of the MCAS system.
The pilots indicated they weren't aware of the 737 Max's computerized stability program -- the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS.

"We flat out deserve to know what is on our airplanes," a pilot is heard saying.

"I don't disagree," the unidentified Boeing official answers.

"These guys didn't even know the damn system was on the airplane," a pilot says, seemingly referring to the Lion Air pilots. "Nor did anybody else."

"I don't know that understanding this system would have changed the outcome of this," the Boeing official says. "In a million miles you're going to maybe fly this airplane, and maybe once you're going to see this ever."
Once is all it takes.
Quote
"I think he's a kook. I think he's crazy...Donald Trump is not a conservative Republican. He's an opportunist. He's not fit to be President of the United States... Donald Trump is a race-baiting xenophobic bigot.” - Lindsey Graham

21.shutout » Wed May 15, 2019 6:41 pm

I have pretty severe anxiety about flying already. This shit lately may have put me over the top.
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22.evil gator » Wed May 15, 2019 6:43 pm

you, who have engaged in endless risky behavior whilst in your midlife crisis, are afraid of one of the most statistically safe transportation methods?
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23.gatorbreeze » Wed May 15, 2019 9:27 pm

you, who have engaged in endless risky behavior whilst in your midlife crisis, are afraid of one of the most statistically safe transportation methods?
That's our blue.
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Remember when you were young, broke and pissed off at the world? Well, you're older now.
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