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451.shutout » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:18 pm

some massive % of those unaccompanied kids who do make it through on their own end up enslaved as well - and would still prefer that over Guatemala.

the bottom line is that the USA can't solve all of everyone's problems all the time. those citizens need to sack up on their own at some point, just like our ancestors were forced to do, and fight for a better country. South America has everything it needs to be a massively successful economic base.

border and immigration control shouldn't be a partisan issue. if we wanna argue about legal immigration (and we should), fine.

452.9508 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:22 pm

If you don’t want families separated, secure the border so that illegal immigrants don’t have to be captured by Border Patrol and separated.
Just waiting for Mexico to pay the bill biggun.

453.9508 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:42 pm

some massive % of those unaccompanied kids who do make it through on their own end up enslaved as well - and would still prefer that over Guatemala.

the bottom line is that the USA can't solve all of everyone's problems all the time. those citizens need to sack up on their own at some point, just like our ancestors were forced to do, and fight for a better country. South America has everything it needs to be a massively successful economic base.

border and immigration control shouldn't be a partisan issue. if we wanna argue about legal immigration (and we should), fine.
Add it to the list of things that shouldn’t be partisan issues. Although I disagree on the lack of need for a discussion. It is an issue that could potentially cost taxpayers billions and anything with that price tag should be discussed.

454.Fishon » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:43 pm



as has been pointed out, the vast majority are unaccompanied.

keeping them together creates a third incarceration logistics problem - family housing - in addition to the two we already have. is it traumatic? sure. is it the end of the world, these kids are gonna die and be forever messed up? no, it isn't. it's about on par with foster care, which we have in spades today.

oh my god, kids are crying! kids f'n cry, it's what they do.

ps: I spent time in foster care as a kid.
it will create long term problem for these kids.
This is what happens inside children when they are forcibly separated from their parents.

Their heart rate goes up. Their body releases a flood of stress hormones such as cortisol and adrenaline. Those stress hormones can start killing off dendrites — the little branches in brain cells that transmit mes­sages. In time, the stress can start killing off neurons and — especially in young children — wreaking dramatic and long-term damage, both psychologically and to the physical structure of the brain.

“The effect is catastrophic,” said Charles Nelson, a pediatrics professor at Harvard Medical School. “There’s so much research on this that if people paid attention at all to the science, they would never do this.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 3b1eaca56e
that's the exact same response to losing a teddy bear or getting told no to ice cream - or getting dropped off at kindergarten or summer camp. he's literally describing the fight or flight response. this kid isn't sitting there writhing in agony for weeks on end like, say, a terrorist being denied sleep with cold and noise.

if we're suddenly gonna be all fucking compassionate let's do it equitably, but that's not what this is about. the harm is being overblown for political purposes.
did you read the article? Look if you take a kid from their parents and then reunite them a day or two later, sure they will initially react the same but it may not have the long term impact. How long are we separating these families? When do they get their kids back?

To say it's the same as losing their teddy bear is so fucking callous and stupid that I can't believe an intelligent person said it

455.Fishon » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:45 pm



as has been pointed out, the vast majority are unaccompanied.

keeping them together creates a third incarceration logistics problem - family housing - in addition to the two we already have. is it traumatic? sure. is it the end of the world, these kids are gonna die and be forever messed up? no, it isn't. it's about on par with foster care, which we have in spades today.

oh my god, kids are crying! kids f'n cry, it's what they do.

ps: I spent time in foster care as a kid.
it will create long term problem for these kids.
This is what happens inside children when they are forcibly separated from their parents.

Their heart rate goes up. Their body releases a flood of stress hormones such as cortisol and adrenaline. Those stress hormones can start killing off dendrites — the little branches in brain cells that transmit mes­sages. In time, the stress can start killing off neurons and — especially in young children — wreaking dramatic and long-term damage, both psychologically and to the physical structure of the brain.

“The effect is catastrophic,” said Charles Nelson, a pediatrics professor at Harvard Medical School. “There’s so much research on this that if people paid attention at all to the science, they would never do this.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 3b1eaca56e
How are the 38,691 other children affected where their own parents sent them across one of the most dangerous borders all alone?

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

(And that’s the only ones that were DETAINED)
how is that a defense of this policy? we can't control what they do with their own kids. we can sure as hell control what our country does in this situation. It doesn't matter to me who's at fault, who started it (if it was Obama, then it was still wrong), etc. it needs to change.

456.shutout » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:50 pm


it will create long term problem for these kids.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 3b1eaca56e
that's the exact same response to losing a teddy bear or getting told no to ice cream - or getting dropped off at kindergarten or summer camp. he's literally describing the fight or flight response. this kid isn't sitting there writhing in agony for weeks on end like, say, a terrorist being denied sleep with cold and noise.

if we're suddenly gonna be all fucking compassionate let's do it equitably, but that's not what this is about. the harm is being overblown for political purposes.
did you read the article? Look if you take a kid from their parents and then reunite them a day or two later, sure they will initially react the same but it may not have the long term impact. How long are we separating these families? When do they get their kids back?

To say it's the same as losing their teddy bear is so fucking callous and stupid that I can't believe an intelligent person said it
WAPO has a paywall and is only marginally trustworthy to begin with:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/

But feel free to paste the article.

457.9508 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:54 pm

Wait, a paper rated “high” on fact based reporting is a marginal source? Are there like 8 levels above “high”?

458.shutout » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:55 pm

Wait, a paper rated “high” on fact based reporting is a marginal source? Are there like 8 levels above “high”?
they bias left. you can state facts (cortisol and adrenaline go up) in an inflammatory manner (save the kids! it ruins dey brains!)

459.Fishon » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:08 pm



that's the exact same response to losing a teddy bear or getting told no to ice cream - or getting dropped off at kindergarten or summer camp. he's literally describing the fight or flight response. this kid isn't sitting there writhing in agony for weeks on end like, say, a terrorist being denied sleep with cold and noise.

if we're suddenly gonna be all fucking compassionate let's do it equitably, but that's not what this is about. the harm is being overblown for political purposes.
did you read the article? Look if you take a kid from their parents and then reunite them a day or two later, sure they will initially react the same but it may not have the long term impact. How long are we separating these families? When do they get their kids back?

To say it's the same as losing their teddy bear is so fucking callous and stupid that I can't believe an intelligent person said it
WAPO has a paywall and is only marginally trustworthy to begin with:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/

But feel free to paste the article.
happy to oblige:
This is what happens inside children when they are forcibly separated from their parents.

Their heart rate goes up. Their body releases a flood of stress hormones such as cortisol and adrenaline. Those stress hormones can start killing off dendrites — the little branches in bThe American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Physicians and the American Psychiatric Association have all issued statements against it — representing more than 250,000 doctors in the United States. Nearly 7,700 mental-health professionals and 142 organizations have also signed a petition urging President Trump to end the policy.rain cells that transmit mes­sages. In time, the stress can start killing off neurons and — especially in young children — wreaking dramatic and long-term damage, both psychologically and to the physical structure of the brain.

“The effect is catastrophic,” said Charles Nelson, a pediatrics professor at Harvard Medical School. “There’s so much research on this that if people paid attention at all to the science, they would never do this.”

That research on child-parent separation is driving pediatricians, psychologists and other health experts to vehemently oppose the Trump administration’s new border crossing policy, which has separated more than 2,000 immigrant children from their parents in recent weeks.

The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Physicians and the American Psychiatric Association have all issued statements against it — representing more than 250,000 doctors in the United States. Nearly 7,700 mental-health professionals and 142 organizations have also signed a petition urging President Trump to end the policy.

“To pretend that separated children do not grow up with the shrapnel of this traumatic experience embedded in their minds is to disregard everything we know about child development, the brain, and trauma,” the petition reads.

Nelson has studied the neurological damage from child-parent separation — work that he said has often reduced him to tears.

In 2000, the Romanian government invited Nelson and a team of researchers into its state orphanages to advise them on a humanitarian crisis that the country’s previous policies had created.

For decades, Romania’s communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu had banned birth control and abortions, and imposed a “celibacy tax” on families with fewer than five children. Ceausescu believed that ratcheting up the country’s birthrate would boost Romania’s economy. Instead, the government ended up opening massive state-run orphanages to deal with more than 100,000 children whose parents couldn’t afford to raise them.

At those orphanages, Nelson said, “we saw kids rocking uncontrollably and hitting themselves, hitting their heads against walls. It was heartbreaking. We had to make up a rule for ourselves as researchers that we would never cry in front of the children. Whenever one of us felt ourselves tearing up, we would walk out of the room.”

As the children grew older, Nelson and his colleagues began finding unsettling differences in their brains.

Those separated from their parents at a young age had much less white matter, which is largely made up of fibers that transmit information throughout the brain, as well as much less gray matter, which contains the brain-cell bodies that process information and solve problems.

The activity in the children’s brains was much lower than expected. “If you think of the brain as a lightbulb,” Nelson said, “it’s as though there was a dimmer that had reduced them from a 100-watt bulb to 30 watts.”

The children, who had been separated from their parents in their first two years of life, scored significantly lower on IQ tests later in life. Their fight-or-flight response system appeared permanently broken. Stressful situations that would usually prompt physiological responses in other people — increased heart rate, sweaty palms — would provoke nothing in the children.

What alarmed the researchers most was the duration of the damage. Unlike other parts of the body, most cells in the brain cannot renew or repair themselves.

The reason child-parent separation has such devastating effects is because it attacks one of the most fundamental and critical bonds in human biology.

From the time they are born, children emotionally attach to their caregiver and vice versa, said Lisa Fortuna, medical director for child and adolescent psychiatry at Boston Medical Center. Skin-to-skin contact for newborns, for example, is critical to their development, research shows. “Our bodies secrete hormones like oxytocin on contact that reinforces the bond, to help us attach and connect,” Fortuna said.

The reason child-parent separation has such devastating effects is because it attacks one of the most fundamental and critical bonds in human biology.

From the time they are born, children emotionally attach to their caregiver and vice versa, said Lisa Fortuna, medical director for child and adolescent psychiatry at Boston Medical Center. Skin-to-skin contact for newborns, for example, is critical to their development, research shows. “Our bodies secrete hormones like oxytocin on contact that reinforces the bond, to help us attach and connect,” Fortuna said.

Research on Aboriginal children in Australia who were removed from their families also showed long-lasting effects. They were nearly twice as likely to be arrested or criminally charged as adults, 60 percent more likely to have alcohol-abuse problems and more than twice as likely to struggle with gambling.

In China — where 1 in 5 children live in villages without their parents, who migrate for work — studies have shown that those “left-behind” children have markedly higher rates of anxiety and depression later in life.

Other studies have shown separation leading to increased aggression, withdrawal and cognitive difficulties.

“If you take the moral, spiritual, even political aspect out of it, from a strictly medical and scientific point of view, what we as a country are doing to these children at the border is unconscionable,” said Luis H. Zayas, a psychiatry professor at the University of Texas at Austin. “The harm our government is now causing will take a lifetime to undo.”

User avatar 460.Irish Mike » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:35 pm



One thing many people don't do is "put yourself in their shoes". Immigrants aren't still coming here because it's fun. Their situation is so bad, they drop everything and leave wherever they're coming from. I feel very fortunate having been born in the US. If I were stuck in some fucked up situation, I'd be looking for some way out.
Sure. And we have a system in place fit refugees as asylum seekers. These people are skirting that system as breaking the law. Families that do it the right way aren't broken up
Sure, but not everyone in a shitty situation qualifies, nor even knows how to apply. Thus, risk vs reward. Break the law in the US, or get murdered/tortured at home. Which would you choose?
I don't blame the people trying to get in here, legally or illegally. But i don't demonize our government when they enforce the law and these people are inconvenienced. We can't take everyone just because they want to come.

User avatar 461.Denver-Gator » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:39 pm


Sure. And we have a system in place fit refugees as asylum seekers. These people are skirting that system as breaking the law. Families that do it the right way aren't broken up
Sure, but not everyone in a shitty situation qualifies, nor even knows how to apply. Thus, risk vs reward. Break the law in the US, or get murdered/tortured at home. Which would you choose?
I don't blame the people trying to get in here, legally or illegally. But i don't demonize our government when they enforce the law and these people are inconvenienced. We can't take everyone just because they want to come.
I'm not demonizing the Trump admin. In fact, I'm calling for what the Trump admin wants Congress to do, put an Immigration bill on his desk and change the rules the admin is enforcing. Then he can either veto or sign it. Then Congress can hold him accountable for the outcome.

462.rampart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:45 pm

Sure, but not everyone in a shitty situation qualifies, nor even knows how to apply. Thus, risk vs reward. Break the law in the US, or get murdered/tortured at home. Which would you choose?
I don't blame the people trying to get in here, legally or illegally. But i don't demonize our government when they enforce the law and these people are inconvenienced. We can't take everyone just because they want to come.
I'm not demonizing the Trump admin. In fact, I'm calling for what the Trump admin wants Congress to do, put an Immigration bill on his desk and change the rules the admin is enforcing. Then he can either veto or sign it. Then Congress can hold him accountable for the outcome.
But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat

463.HG 2.0 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:50 pm


I don't blame the people trying to get in here, legally or illegally. But i don't demonize our government when they enforce the law and these people are inconvenienced. We can't take everyone just because they want to come.
I'm not demonizing the Trump admin. In fact, I'm calling for what the Trump admin wants Congress to do, put an Immigration bill on his desk and change the rules the admin is enforcing. Then he can either veto or sign it. Then Congress can hold him accountable for the outcome.
But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat
So their inaction, out of spite, is causing the suffering of these children. They are letting these kids rot because they don’t like trump? How noble. So much for their core values of helping people.... they don’t give a F, all they want us for trump to look bad.

464.9508 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm


I don't blame the people trying to get in here, legally or illegally. But i don't demonize our government when they enforce the law and these people are inconvenienced. We can't take everyone just because they want to come.
I'm not demonizing the Trump admin. In fact, I'm calling for what the Trump admin wants Congress to do, put an Immigration bill on his desk and change the rules the admin is enforcing. Then he can either veto or sign it. Then Congress can hold him accountable for the outcome.
But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat
The politics of this are interesting. Trump is perfectly capable of changing the behavior with a stroke of the pen. Congress doesn’t need to act to change this. However, trump is choosing to do this to force an immigration bill.... with funding for a wall.

The votes don’t exist to get that done. And Pubs have no desire to even be discussing this currently.

Except that it distracts from a discussion on healthcare

465.9508 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:52 pm

I'm not demonizing the Trump admin. In fact, I'm calling for what the Trump admin wants Congress to do, put an Immigration bill on his desk and change the rules the admin is enforcing. Then he can either veto or sign it. Then Congress can hold him accountable for the outcome.
But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat
So their inaction, out of spite, is causing the suffering of these children. They are letting these kids rot because they don’t like trump? How noble. So much for their core values of helping people.... they don’t give a F, all they want us for trump to look bad.
Trump can end it with an exec order. He just chooses not to to push it to Congress.

User avatar 466.Denver-Gator » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:00 pm

I'm not demonizing the Trump admin. In fact, I'm calling for what the Trump admin wants Congress to do, put an Immigration bill on his desk and change the rules the admin is enforcing. Then he can either veto or sign it. Then Congress can hold him accountable for the outcome.
But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat
The politics of this are interesting. Trump is perfectly capable of changing the behavior with a stroke of the pen. Congress doesn’t need to act to change this. However, trump is choosing to do this to force an immigration bill.... with funding for a wall.

The votes don’t exist to get that done. And Pubs have no desire to even be discussing this currently.

Except that it distracts from a discussion on healthcare
So put a provision in the bill for a wall, contingent on Mexico paying for it.

467.rampart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:17 pm

I'm not demonizing the Trump admin. In fact, I'm calling for what the Trump admin wants Congress to do, put an Immigration bill on his desk and change the rules the admin is enforcing. Then he can either veto or sign it. Then Congress can hold him accountable for the outcome.
But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat
So their inaction, out of spite, is causing the suffering of these children. They are letting these kids rot because they don’t like trump? How noble. So much for their core values of helping people.... they don’t give a F, all they want us for trump to look bad.
Are you implying it's the dems doing all of this? Pretty sure there is plenty of blame to go around.

Right wingers don't want dreamers

Moderate pubs are afraid of opposing trump

Dems won't approve a bill for a wall funded by mex... America.

And trump will continue being the asshole. He could end it all now if he wanted to but let's act like he's powerless because he has to deal with a congress controlled by his own party that refuses to act

468.rampart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:18 pm



But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat
The politics of this are interesting. Trump is perfectly capable of changing the behavior with a stroke of the pen. Congress doesn’t need to act to change this. However, trump is choosing to do this to force an immigration bill.... with funding for a wall.

The votes don’t exist to get that done. And Pubs have no desire to even be discussing this currently.

Except that it distracts from a discussion on healthcare
So put a provision in the bill for a wall, contingent on Mexico paying for it.
Hahaha, this is still one of my favorite bullshit promises

User avatar 469.Denver-Gator » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:20 pm



But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat
So their inaction, out of spite, is causing the suffering of these children. They are letting these kids rot because they don’t like trump? How noble. So much for their core values of helping people.... they don’t give a F, all they want us for trump to look bad.
Are you implying it's the dems doing all of this? Pretty sure there is plenty of blame to go around.

Right wingers don't want dreamers

Moderate pubs are afraid of opposing trump

Dems won't approve a bill for a wall funded by mex... America.

And trump will continue being the asshole. He could end it all now if he wanted to but let's act like he's powerless because he has to deal with a congress controlled by his own party that refuses to act
You're probably right, but wouldn't it be a thumb in the nose to Trump, who repeatedly promised that he would get Mexico to fund it. Ok, you got your wall if you can make that happen you big dope.

470.rampart » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:22 pm


So their inaction, out of spite, is causing the suffering of these children. They are letting these kids rot because they don’t like trump? How noble. So much for their core values of helping people.... they don’t give a F, all they want us for trump to look bad.
Are you implying it's the dems doing all of this? Pretty sure there is plenty of blame to go around.

Right wingers don't want dreamers

Moderate pubs are afraid of opposing trump

Dems won't approve a bill for a wall funded by mex... America.

And trump will continue being the asshole. He could end it all now if he wanted to but let's act like he's powerless because he has to deal with a congress controlled by his own party that refuses to act
You're probably right, but wouldn't it be a thumb in the nose to Trump, who repeatedly promised that he would get Mexico to fund it. Ok, you got your wall if you can make that happen you big dope.
It could be great ammo for the dems but completely irresponsible big govt right? Still, there is so much potential in this for the dems but they are probably to stupid to see it

471.HG 2.0 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:32 pm



But why would they? He's the one who looks like the asshole. His choice btw, but he's making it and they'll let him take the heat
So their inaction, out of spite, is causing the suffering of these children. They are letting these kids rot because they don’t like trump? How noble. So much for their core values of helping people.... they don’t give a F, all they want us for trump to look bad.
Are you implying it's the dems doing all of this? Pretty sure there is plenty of blame to go around.

Right wingers don't want dreamers

Moderate pubs are afraid of opposing trump

Dems won't approve a bill for a wall funded by mex... America.

And trump will continue being the asshole. He could end it all now if he wanted to but let's act like he's powerless because he has to deal with a congress controlled by his own party that refuses to act
No, but the dems certainly act outraged. And they have ample opportunity don’t forget many pubs don’t like trump either and do shit out of spite

472.shutout » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:33 pm

a wall isn't going to change a single thing.

User avatar 473.Denver-Gator » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:34 pm



Are you implying it's the dems doing all of this? Pretty sure there is plenty of blame to go around.

Right wingers don't want dreamers

Moderate pubs are afraid of opposing trump

Dems won't approve a bill for a wall funded by mex... America.

And trump will continue being the asshole. He could end it all now if he wanted to but let's act like he's powerless because he has to deal with a congress controlled by his own party that refuses to act
You're probably right, but wouldn't it be a thumb in the nose to Trump, who repeatedly promised that he would get Mexico to fund it. Ok, you got your wall if you can make that happen you big dope.
It could be great ammo for the dems but completely irresponsible big govt right? Still, there is so much potential in this for the dems but they are probably to stupid to see it
What's irresponsible about giving the President what he promised his voters in a bill to get it passed, a wall funded by Mexico? :beatsme:

474.Fishon » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:35 pm

a wall isn't going to change a single thing.
you shut your mouth when you're talking to me!

User avatar 475.Denver-Gator » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:35 pm

a wall isn't going to change a single thing.
Didn't say any of this was realistic, but to get the bill passed, sure, you can have your f-ing wall. And Mexico will pay for it just like you promised.
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